Episode 2: Dr. Joan Friedman – Twin Specialist

In this episode, Laine and Nell get vulnerable and delve into the intricate world of twin relationships with Dr. Joan Friedman, a psychologist and twin specialist. Dr. Friedman, an identical twin herself and mother to fraternal twins, helps us go deep by addressing the cultural perception of twins and discussing the concept of the 'twin mystique,' the societal fascination with twins, and its effects on identity and individuality. The conversation covers personal anecdotes, challenges of twin enmeshment, how they navigated their own twin dynamics, and the importance of fostering individuality. This episode offers valuable insights for not only twins and siblings, but for anyone interested in family dynamics and relationships that inhabit areas of co-dependence.

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Transcript

Episode 2: Dr. Joan Friedman – Twin Specialist
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​[00:00:00] 

Laine: Hello,

Nell: Good morning, good afternoon, good

Laine: twin A. I'm starting like that since this is going to be our twin episode, y'all.

Nell: is a phenomenal lead

Laine: Twin [00:01:00] topics.

Nell: and that has only to do with birth order, by the way, and the birth order we would never really know if it had been a vaginal birth because it was actually a C section, so.

Laine: Wow. Now with the lingo today, girl, you

Nell: Well, I would like to actually use a lingo of like, what is the word when it's like, I, I was on top in the sense of like closer to the belly

Laine: breach. Weren't you like

Nell: it's not reach, but I was, I would like to even floss some more. Like say like, Oh, I was anterior or something like that because I

Laine: don't try. I don't know those terms.

Nell: anyhow, we, we have a fun episode day because we have this fabulous. She has

Laine: Dr. Joan Friedman, psychologist, twin specialist, identical twin. She has fraternal twin boys herself. She has specialized in twins her whole career.

Nell: much experience, but we really wanted to bring somebody on because obviously we are twins and the relationship of twins is such a unique one. And also the way that twins are viewed in the world is a very unique view in general. And Joan really [00:02:00] goes into talking a lot about something she calls the twin mystique that we've read about in her books.

Laine: She's a, how many times over author? Is she like a four time author?

Nell: I think it's

Laine: Three time

Nell: three books.

Laine: So she's, she's written books with different topics on, on twins, but we have read, well, Nell, you've read more than me. I've read one of her books, but we, we had a lot of feedback last season, kind of like wanting to know more about like the twin thing.

And I know a lot of our listeners enjoy it because maybe they feel like they're, they have, they can relate with The feeling of talking to their own sister, catching up on the phone. That said, we always, you and I, like you said, we know about this twin mystique. There's like a shadow character of twins because it's not always an easy relationship.

There's been a lot of work that we've had to do along the way because there's enmeshment issues.

Nell: Yes, and there's not, it's not always just, you know, and we talk about this in the interview at like flowers and roses always there's a close intimate relationships have a lot of sides them just as like a two partners, you know, romantic partners in life, as we know, the close you are also the more there is in between you two.

But I think this was [00:03:00] important for us because we also have never related to like, as much as we. It's shared a lot in our lives. The twins are in a media that, you know, you see in the people magazine, it's like these twins married these twins and they share a house and had kids

Laine: I mean, dress the

Nell: Yeah. And they, they have zero, you know, like everything is just together together.

It's, it's kind of like makes them look good. freaky or something. I don't know.

Laine: Like, yeah, they're like, they're

Nell: like crazy twins. Yeah. Like, oh God, they've got it

Laine: unhealthy twins really.

Nell: pretty unhealthy. So that's, I mean, maybe, I don't know, maybe not. Maybe they're just,

Laine: our assessment. Well, we know because we know how important individuality is. So when we see that, it's just kind of like, yikes.

Nell: what I think is interesting that Dr. Joan will talk to us about, which is cool is that she really gets into the idea of like human beings, identity, having individuality and how important that is and why a lot of twins have suffered because of that twin mystique and kind of what society puts on them in the sense of romanticizing twinship.

Laine: And before we introduce this episode, the last thing I want to say is that I walked away from this. I don't know how [00:04:00] you felt, but I was like, wow. We've done a pretty phenomenal job, all things considered, because we did live together until we were 29, but we, and we had the same jobs, but we were, you know, traveling separately, so we had time apart, we had time together, like, considering how bad it could have been, like, we've had to retrospectively do some twin work.

We don't talk to be used. I mean, do you remember when we used to like finish each other's sentences? Like it was like talking to us would be like a, you know, like a TV show. I feel like people would be like, you guys need a TV

Nell: it. It's like we were literally spending so much time together that we probably, we were thinking the same, we were looking at the same, consuming all the same information. So yeah, we were pretty wired similarly. Um,

Laine: but we like benefited from the partnership, like being able to study abroad together. Like we had a lot of. benefits from like the confidence of being a, a, a twosome, a pair that I could think definitely I took for granted back then, you know, we've talked about this, like, you know, coming into ourselves and whatnot, but that said, we've had to do some work retrospectively, but I think like, I'm like, wow, we've done a pretty great job because I think it's, [00:05:00] I think it's tricky being an identical twin.

Nell: I think it's very, very tricky. I think it's super layered and I, that's what I love about this interview is that it's kind of peeling off the surface level of twinship.

Laine: Now, do you see that the audience won't be able to see this, but do you remember when we did this, like the first like 30 seconds or 60 seconds of her talking, I was like tearing up.

Nell: You're like, this is really hitting home. I have to re listen to this now. Yeah. You were like crying like literally 10 seconds and you were like crying. I was like, Oh, whoa,

Laine: it was just like so, having somebody understand the twin experience, because it's so hard to put into words, like, just the complicated love and depth and admiration and need and, and space and all the good, the bad.

Nell: Yeah. And like the, and the good and the bad of the codependence. And this is why I think she is like so special to us is because We really, like, wow, to connect to a twin specialist, you feel really seen and that's something that twins don't get to experience much because we are not the, we're [00:06:00] not singletons in the

Laine: not the norm.

Nell: We're not the norm. And so like, even if you want to go see a therapist about something, it really is a waste of time if they are not specialists in, in, in that

Laine: like, you don't get

Nell: yeah, cause it's, it's such a complicated thing that unless you've, you know, committed your whole life to studying it, understanding it.

Combined with the privileged experience on top of it, it's kind of like, well, you're just throwing money at somebody who's going to give you opinions based on literally not zero understanding of what,

Laine: Conceptual, like concepts.

Nell: of like what you're actually like having to navigate, let's say. So, I mean, without giving this too, you know, too much out before we start, let's.

Let's just roll right into that interview because it's some good stuff. I hope, I hope everybody enjoys

Laine: A. Friedman. Yes. Enjoy. I know. I can't wait to hear what, what the listeners think if they learn anything new about us. I hope it's not too revealing.

Nell: And see if you relate to any of it too. See if it relates to any, anybody else. It's not just twins, but just in relationships in general, intimate relationships and siblings and families. Yeah. All right. Love you. Bye.[00:07:00] 

Laine: Well, good afternoon. Good morning. Good evening. I'm not sure what time anyone's listening to this, but we have a very exciting guest today. I want to start with giving a little bit of background about something that happened Many years ago, our mother gave us a book to Nell and I, and it was called Emotionally Healthy Twins.

And she said, you should read this. This is a really, really good book. I learned a lot about after I

Nell: fact, we were 27 years old and,

Laine: 27

Nell: and we both looked at my mom and we were like, hasn't that ship sailed? Like really now you're going to give us this book? And then,

Laine: Well, I don't think we've, I didn't feel like that when I, when I first received it, but it was after I read it that I thought, oh my goodness, mom, like you just got busted doing so many things wrong. It was so revealing. I just thought, we have a child. Dr. Joan A. Friedman here today, the author of, now would you like to take that?

You've got all three books in front

Nell: front of me. [00:08:00] She's written three amazing books. Um, Emotionally Healthy Twins is the first one. The second one is the same, but different. And then the third one is Twins in Session. And what I love about these books is that they each take a very different approach and Dr. Joan A.

Freedman, you can correct me if I'm wrong here. The first one I felt like was a really great handbook for parents. And it was very user, it was very user friendly in that

Joan: Exactly.

Nell: The second one, the same but different was really for the perspective of twins being able to read and kind of have that self help or being able to relate to other twins and their issues and not feel alone, let's say, have some advice.

And then the third one was really.

Joan: And that was the one your mom should have given to

Nell: That's so true. If only she had known.

Laine: Well, first off, can we just let Joan say hello to everybody? And maybe she can even give us a little bit of her background. I know you went right into the books. I mean, I love it. I love the gusto. I mean, but [00:09:00] hi, Joan. Hi, Dr. Dr. Joan A. Friedman.

Joan: I'm so thankful to Nell and Lane for inviting me today, getting to talk about myself and my favorite subject, which is twins. And yes, her mom, their mom picked up the wrong book, um, because they were already probably very much young adults and they weren't needing the parenting book. But how very insightful of her to recognize that maybe there were things that she didn't do that she learned.

And that's specifically why I've written all these books. books because everybody, not everybody, but so many people don't seem to recognize that twins are very different people, children to raise. And you've got to sort of develop a different mentality about raising them that you would necessarily not even know about or think about unless you had twins.

And that became the premise for a lot of the work that I've been doing.

Nell: so give us, I love that. How long have you been actually working in this field of [00:10:00] studying and really specifically working with twins?

Joan: Well, probably for many more years. And I care to admit, because I'm an identical twin, so I've been in the twin space for many, many years. You know, it's all very much hindsight because when you're growing up like I did in a twin bubble, you don't have any idea about what it's like not to be a twin. And my sister and I grew up in a room where there were, um, we had a big house and it would have been preferable and healthier to give us our own rooms.

But no, no, that was never thought about. So we were like in a room for a couple. We had, you know, monogrammed towels that both said J on it because my sister's name starts with J. And we had, you know, built in desks, built in beds, you know, a closet we shared. It was all like we were a couple. And that's how we felt until we finally couldn't stand each other for one more minute and went to different colleges and [00:11:00] then began a whole new emotional, psychological journey that I can talk about later, but it really was very shocking all of a sudden to be a singleton.

Nell: A singleton.

Laine: Wow.

Nell: This is, that is profound. So you guys actually were able to get to different colleges though. To have the tools to do that after what you just described was such a coupledom growing up. To be able to separate like that is actually very impressive.

Joan: Well, I didn't do such a great job. My sister got to school and she has had a roommate who continues till this day to be her best friend. And I got to school and was having a terrible time. And unbeknownst to me why, I figured it out later in therapy, which I'm still enjoying, um, that I was looking for a twin to take care of.

So I think I found the most depressed woman at the University of Michigan, where I was, [00:12:00] and continued unconsciously to be a caretaking twin, because it was the only role I The only function that I felt I had, because I didn't, at that point, have a sense of myself. So I was sort of living out, or being a function of what I'd always done in my twinship, was to take care of my sister.

And it understandably led to a lot of emotional difficulties. that I had to spend a lot of time figuring out, which I have. Um, but it also prompted me to think, wow, maybe these other twins have this problem. Why would they have this problem? What might have happened in their childhood to sort of facilitate this?

And how can I figure out how to help them? And that's been my passionate, passionate journey. all of my life. And then it really got accentuated. I had three children, [00:13:00] three singletons. And I said, Oh gosh, I want to have one more. And I was 40 and I had twin. I found out I was pregnant with twins. I call my husband.

I am like, no, this can't be happening. So he says to me, the eternal optimist, that he is. Well, at least they're not triplets. I go. Yeah, that's very helpful. Thank you. So actually, it was really helpful because they ended up being fraternal twins, boys, not identical twin girls, which I think I would have had a hard time, you know, kind of reliving my childhood.

So I'm so thankful. Yeah, so thankful that they were fraternal twin boys. And I had So much fun raising them in the way that I wish that my twin and I had been raised. And that has also informed so much of what I'm doing.

Nell: I mean, how,

Laine: I just want to say that just listening to that, I got really emotional just you even [00:14:00] describing your experience. It's like, it's very hard, I think, for singletons to understand the enmeshments and the identities, identity issues and the, you know,

Nell: what kind of the roles that the roles that get developed so young, like when you just spoke about the caretaker, that these roles develop naturally. They're not like, it's not somebody says you have to do this or you do that. Or it's, it's just something that naturally happens. And then it becomes

Laine: a yin and a yang, a balance.

Nell: So you're always kind of, um, playing off of each other or filling in the spaces for each other and the weaknesses, you know, where I'm weak, she's strong, where she's, You know, weak, I'm strong.

And then when you do separate, it's like there's these kind of gaps of development that maybe haven't been filled in. Or like you said, you fall into the same pattern. I mean, that was profound to say that you just went into this, like, this is what you felt there. That's the only thing you know how to do.

So that's the relationship you fell into.

Joan: Exactly. And it does, to your point, [00:15:00] these roles that twins that we fall into just just seem to be organically kind of just happen. No one says, Oh, I'm going to be the cared for twins and you're going to be the caretaking. It just kind of happens and also I know for some twin pairs didn't happen for me, there's a switching of that from time to time based on each twin circumstances.

Yeah. So it that's very interesting and the the enmeshment part is also interesting in addition to Take you think about it going off on your own after years of living What is 18 or 17 years of living with someone in the same? Bedroom going to the same school having the same friends having exactly the same experiences all of a sudden There you are.

You're like a fish out of water, and you don't know what it's like to socialize on your own. I, I was so, so, had so much social anxiety. Studying on your own, you know, living with other people other than your [00:16:00] twin, and also this friendship piece. I don't know if you experienced this, but with a twin growing up, you expect to Instant intimacy, like you're going to talk to somebody and they're going to know you and love you and accept you.

And you're going to have this unbelievable connection in about 10 minutes, which does not happen with normal people. It's like, so you're so like shocked and surprised. Like, why is it taking them so long to get to know me? And that happens not only with, with same sex Friends, but also opposite sex friends or romantic partners.

Cause you bring in all these facets of what your twin attachment taught you into life as a singleton. And you have to really relearn and recover when you start to have problems and issues when the twin attachment model stops

Nell: Twin attachment

Laine: I'm writing that

Nell: attachment model. Yeah.[00:17:00] 

Laine: model because there's so many things that you're saying. And I do want to mention that we had viewer feedback, or I should say listener feedback last season that, that a few people were like, we want to hear the husbands come on and talk about being married to twins.

And we were like, that could be a disaster. Like they would not like that. So, but we really did feel like having you on is, is like, it's a way to, it's not only there's so many parents of Obviously multiples and twins now identical fraternal boy girl, you know, same sex But you know also a way to get to know us better and and when you were talking about that There's a few things I thought about the switching thing I know that my sister and I always said that We did feel very yin and yang and we would say that like we could neither one of us could like be uprooted at the same time like if someone was going through more of like Just a stage of like rebel or just in an unstable relationship.

Like the other one had to be very rooted. They had to hold the other one down because you can't both be going through something at the same time. So there was definitely more of a switcheroo that occurred that we saw. And, and I think generally [00:18:00] speaking, we still had roles that were like, you know, we, we always say that my sister was, Nell was a little, I used to call her mom in high school.

And at the same time, she would lean on me to, um, Like help break the rules. So like, if my parents would yell up to us and be like, where are you going to go to go tonight? Like, Nell would be like,

Nell: Yeah. I'd literally be like ducking down. Like I never developed the very useful skill of lying. I never developed that. And I would just like literally go on a ball and I'm like, I can't, I can't, I can't do it. And she'd be like, we're going to go to

Laine: had to be stronger. I had to make up this stuff. So I became the one who would like carry that role and got good at like being like, Oh my God, because I knew she couldn't do it.

Nell: But I knew she would do it. So I didn't have to develop it. That, that's the joke is that I knew she would do it. So I'm like, well, I'm just going to peace out on this.

Joan: Well, that's very good. Because what you did was you had complimentary roles. You complimented each other rather than had a lot of animosity between the two of you. And the kind of the same thing with couples with, you know, you [00:19:00] need to be compliments to one another rather than sort of, you know, rivals

Nell: I just saw,

Joan: each

Nell: I just saw this thing about long term and last, like lasting satisfactory or satisfactory relationships. They were speaking about romantic, but saying that instead of being compatible, they should be. Complimentary because compatibility gets boring in a way. It's like another version of yourself, but the, you know, complimenting each other's like that, like filling in your weaknesses and lane.

And I really, I, I, I definitely didn't feel that we had a competitive, we were more, I know I was always like. I felt like we would kind of go in not opposite directions, but like, well, I don't want to compete with that. So I'm going to do this way or I'll, I'll go for this type of,

Laine: like different types of boyfriends

Nell: never, we, we would kind of purposely go in different directions as to not, yes, avoid it.

That's

Laine: because it was painful. It was painful, I think, to, to avoid. And I think we always say that, like, I remember reading this in your book somewhere in one of your books, but this idea that [00:20:00] You really want your twin to be there with you. So like, even as dancers and stuff, it's like, I didn't really want to be in like a piece that my sister wasn't in and vice versa.

Like, it was like more fun if she was in it. Like, I wanted her there. So it was like, it would take away the joy of an activity if they weren't there because we felt more complete. I mean, that's definitely probably part of

Nell: twin enmeshment thing.

Laine: the twin psychology. Yeah, enmeshment thing. But I also wanted to mention about the romantic thing.

Cause when you mentioned that, um, about the idea that, um, partners, like you expect this intimacy. My husband always says this where he's just like, Oh, this is your twin stuff. Like if we don't agree about something or we have a different opinion, like an observation, like sometimes I'm just astounded. I'm like, like you, you know, why would you like, I don't understand how he could see something in his own way.

Because at the end of the day, Nell and I do, we disagree about some things and we can play devil's advocate. However, we generally speaking, we have the same opinion on things like we, you know, assess characters similarly, you know, we just have similar opinions and it's, [00:21:00] Yeah.

Joan: I can tell you in so many of the cases that, um, that I'm dealing with, with twins who come and need help, they struggle with having differences because they see their differences as breaking the bond of their twinship. And they disagree. And when they disagree, they can't see that they're in that moment, two different people, two separate people who happen to have separate opinions, because they feel like if they're not agreeing on everything, then they're not twins.

And then their connection is broken. And then they're upset with each other. And And I've, I've had this experience myself in so many patients. It took me so many years to see this. I always assumed, I don't know if this happened to you, that my sister thought and felt the same way that I did about everything.

I just assumed that that was her reality. And so when I finally found out that it wasn't, it was so shocking because I had just kind of had this thought. [00:22:00] massive

Nell: Yeah.

Joan: that, that of course, we thought the same thing about everything. And that's when we started having some issues because we had very different parenting issues.

We parented differently. We had husbands who were completely different and There's a lot to say about negotiating a relationship with your twin, where you want to make room for your husband, and you also want to make room for your twin, and it's one of those very perilous spaces that a lot of twins don't really learn how to negotiate well, and because they have to choose one or the other, they are upset.

miserable because it feels like such a no win situation. And in most cases, twins choose their spouse, but they're in such grief over not having the capacity.

Nell: it's, it's a lose lose situation.

Laine: I'm going to say is I'm just going to say this poor now, because [00:23:00] now I, I mean, I just feel like I think about you, you, she had her partner since she was 21 and I was always just like dating, like had a bad boyfriend and I was the third wheel. They really took me in. I mean, really Eduardo, like, you know, we say that, like, I used to fight with her husband, like, you know, I mean, like we were, you know,

Nell: well, that was our, our youth. I mean, that's something that was like an over that was too much, you know, that, that was almost like in your youth, you allow that to happen, but that would never happen as adults because it would never, it's, it's too

Laine: but it's what it's what you're referring to this, this concept of like, like you were trying to negotiate having a very

Nell: Well, what we've always had.

Laine: And I was still

Nell: you didn't give us that really, like you'd wanna hang out too. But to me that was probably norm

Laine: well, I'd be like, I keep, I go to dinner with you guys, you know,

Nell: that that was probably still normal to me at that point. But what I'd like to say is that what we are lucky and that we don't have to deal with is that we live in separate places.

So I think the twins that live in the same place and have to really navigate like day-to-day living with kids and partners and they're, um. twin. It has [00:24:00] to be exponentially more challenging. And I think about that often because I'm like, I miss my sister and I miss that we're not right next to each other, raising our kids.

With that being said, I'm like, it's probably so much easier at this phase of our lives to focus on our families and to have that, the connection with our partners. Cause that's really right now, by far the most important thing when you're raising kids, I think, you know, I mean, obviously twinship, friendship, all those things are important too, but it makes it more, Like less complicated that way it's like when we want to see each other It's like we're visiting each other or a lot of times we do our third party meet And a third party place go on a trip together.

And it's so much fun because you take away all the other distractions and we can just go into the twinship, which I find very healthy because sometimes when I go into her territory or she comes into mine, there's always someone more stressed out because they're like the host and they're managing their day to day life.

Well,

Laine: Well,

Nell: Well, there's, you know, five extra people in their home or whatnot. So I feel like that, like I, and I see a lot of, I actually [00:25:00] know a lot of twins here in Puerto Rico, which is crazy, but I see that it's a different, I don't really know how they navigate that. Like I've, I've never lifted up the blanket there or the sheet to kind of see underneath.

Laine: Well, Dr. Freeman, did you raise your children close to each other? Were you?

Joan: yes, my sister and I live very close to each other. So, yes, I, I'm, I'm listening to your situation and sort of envious. Um, because it, it has been over the years, very difficult, but you know, it's so fascinating. It's nice when you're able to live a long life to see the evolution of something that may have been so difficult and painful and excruciatingly difficult.

upsetting, you know, as you get older, your, your priorities change. And I would say now my sister and I are, are probably closer than we've ever been. You know, we're not involved anymore with the parenting piece. We're still both married. We're still, we've kind of made this bond again, where we're much more [00:26:00] authentic.

with one another as opposed to like with me walking on eggshells being aware of a lot of her feelings toward me which have a lot to do with competition and envy and all the stuff that goes with the twinship unfortunately that you've been able to negotiate by by being physically more separate and that's wonderful but it's hard and I think The twin who is more capable of being psychologically minded or self aware has to like, really, you know, kind of drink the Kool Aid, allow all these feelings to come up and allow your twin to have them and to understand them intellectually, but to not have it Come to the point where you're needing more, wanting more, but kind of just letting it go and letting it evolve.

And it does eventually evolve, but the people that I see, the twin ships that I see, Work with have been ruptured there. [00:27:00] There there's really no repair possible because they, so much has gone by that they, that they haven't been able to negotiate over time and it's very, it's so sad, but they don't see each other.

They don't talk to each other. They miss each other, but they don't find a way back. It's like a divorce.

Nell: Yeah. And like

Laine: You know, I just saw the, you know, those twins, the, they're the Tia, Tia Maori, they're the girls, Tamara and

Nell: They had a sister,

Laine: they're like, you know, they're, back in the day there. So I just saw that one of them like must have been interviewed and said something about the fact that she's like, you know, I wish I, Was in a space in my relationship where I could like call my sister and something and something.

I think she's, she now just went through a divorce and her sister's still married and maybe one lives in LA and one lives in Napa Valley or something. But I was a little bit shocked. I actually heard them talking about on the radio and I was like, that's so sad. Cause I know they're identical twins who were in the business together.

And [00:28:00] I just had to wonder because of course, uh, per this discussion, we know there's always a deeper storyline or plot line to this, like as to why they, why she can't call her sister. You know, that made me so sad. I'm like, Oh God, twins who lose their way.

Joan: Mm

Nell: can I ask, I want to bring up this term that I feel like I think that you coined, which is called the twin mystique, because I feel like that's such a foundational. I mean, my sister, I can definitely relate to this. I think probably every twin could relate to this, that you talk to us about what the twin mystique, how that damages or how, how hard that is for twins and talk about what the twin mystique is for people who are listening.

Joan: Okay, so every time I someone asked me, what do I do? I'm a psychotherapist. Do you have a specialty? Yeah, I specialize in twins. What do you mean? I said, they say, I said, Oh, well, I specialize with twins who are having difficulty getting along. [00:29:00] What are you talking about? Twins don't have, twins always get along.

So, you know, it's that, that's the twin mystique. That twins are best friends and soulmates and they have ESP and they're never alone and they're going to live and die together. And, you know, there's this idealization about What it is to have a twin connection and not to say that there are not many, many positive parts to having a twin, but nobody's interested really, or wants to look at unless you're a parent, I think, or an adult twin at the downside.

So the twin mystique is. It is like the best thing since white bread. You know, you are so lucky. I've always wanted to be a twin. I wish I had twins. I, you know, and then you talk to people who are twins or who have twins and they'll tell you it's, it's wonderful, but it is so challenging. It's challenging to parent twins and it's challenging to be an adult twin.[00:30:00] 

Um, when you have issues wanting to get along with your twin and you're struggling. So that's the twin mystique. It's not all wonderful. And people think if you talk about it in a negative way, you're going to somehow break the twin connection. But I always say it strengthens the twin connection. It doesn't break it when you're able to understand.

Nell: I've felt in times that I've actually like disillusioned people about twinship if I've been open. We're like, yeah, but you know, it's complicated. And if I've ever said anything that's not, doesn't fall right into, as you say, the mystique, I'm like, well, what did, like, I've had that, that feeling so many times where I'm like, God, I'm sorry to disappoint you that, you know, we're not walking through a field, picking flowers and letting each other, you know, it's like, there's more

Laine: Well, I think what, what we should start off by saying as we have three identical twins here, and I think what's, what's important for people to understand is, is from a very young age, you learn to respond to more than one name. Literally, you just do, you, [00:31:00] you, you get to the point where you don't correct people.

I always laugh about this, that Nell and I really stopped correcting people, and sometimes they would have an entire exchange with us, and then it would come out that I'd be like, Oh, well, just, you know, I'm actually not Nell, I'm Lane. And then they would be horrified,

Nell: they wouldn't even know the

Laine: like, you know

Nell: like, whether or not it's just a name to a lot of people. So

Laine: But, or maybe they did, maybe they did want to know, but I just, I think then you start sparing people those details because it, you're like, a lot of, you know, even in school and we went to University of Wisconsin together, there would be times that someone would like run up and give me a big hug and I'd be like, it's not worth it for me to say, you probably know my sister because it would be so horrifying when they would be like,

Joan: Uh

Laine: Wait a minute.

Like, you know, and they would, they didn't maybe know we were twins or whatever. So there's that aspect. And then there's like the other thing with the comparisons. And this is one of the things that Nell and I always talk about. Like now you see we're so open now. Like there's a dialogue about everything, especially with women and, you know, bodies.

weight and all these things. But when we were young, like people literally would put you up next to each other and they would [00:32:00] tell you what was different about you. They'd say, she has a more narrow face. Lane has a rounder face. She's a half an inch taller, you know, she,

Nell: and then they'd try to label who's, she's more outgoing. She's, she's got, she's a little more. And, and,

Laine: Who's more fun. Who's the crazier one. Who's better at math. You're like,

Nell: but it was something that we got as a twin, you actually like have to just. That's something I think I, in retrospect, I look at, I'm like, wow, I just had to accept it was okay that we were like a museum piece, which sure, it gets attention, but under a microscope where it's, where people have, and they can do it in front of you.

It's not when you walk away, they say it. They're literally like, oh, I can analyze you in front of you. And this is a fun game. And. As a twin, you're just so used to that. But then later on, in retrospect, you look as an adult and who, who now, when I moved away, I mean, that was the first time we really differentiated was when I moved to Puerto Rico and that was like, Oh, which twin lives in Puerto Rico.

So that was like something to hang on to.

Laine: You mean, no, you mean, no, you mean

Nell: or Costa Rica, whatever they think.[00:33:00] 

Laine: People would always, I would fly with, with, with like, you know, we both worked at NetJets. We both worked on private jets. I would see pilots. I'd be like, how's your sister in Costa Rica? Is she in Australia? Nope. Nope.

Nell: And then I would be here and I'd come back here and they'd be like, how's Minnesota? I'm like, no, it's Wisconsin. I mean, nobody could keep track of anything. I'm like, oh God. But were you going to say

Joan: you know, it is very, it's very interesting. You, you write, you grow up tolerating that stuff and it still happens. And I, this one mom wrote me and she said, I think the thing that people don't know about. twins is that they're bullied. And in a way you are bullied. I mean, it's not the conventional bully, but you're right.

Like being compared, putting together in front of everyone who's taller, who's thinner, who's cuter. It is a form of social bullying in a way. And I guess people, they have a good intention. They're trying in their best way to differentiate who's who. And so they come up with all these. Very unhealthy ways of [00:34:00] doing it.

And so many twins say, you know, yes, we've got a lot of attention. That's it. There's a word in, in the book, social capital, which I love. Twins get a lot of social capital because they are looked at. They're acknowledged. You know, everyone wants to be a twin. They all pay attention to them. They attract people to them, but at the end of the day, the social capital Gives them no feeling about, God, can I make a friend on my own?

I want actually be recognized for something that I have done. I mean, it's an empty sort of a recognition as you get older, as you get older. I think that's why like with a lot of adolescent twins, you know, one will become like in high school, like a goth and the other one will remain how she looks because she is such a need to be seen as a different.

person, not like her twin sister. So a lot of adolescents go to extreme to change their external identity, [00:35:00] which makes sense, even though they have to work on the internal identity as well. It gives them kind of a break from all the twin stuff that can be very smothering.

Laine: I would love for you to talk a little bit about what you see being like the most typical or common issue with adult twins, just because this is the stage of life that we're in now. So some of the things that you see, you know, not, not in those formidable years where you're being constantly compared, but even like, you know, living different lives, like, what are some of the issues that you see people kind of grappling with or starting to digest that they weren't able to, you kind of talked about that looking in retrospect, are there things that you see like most common conversations?

Joan: I mean, the most common one is dealing with a romantic partner or husband. That, that seems to be the number one issue that twins come in [00:36:00] with. because they're really having difficulty or they've been unsuccessful and they have a lot of feelings about it. The next one seems to be, I don't know, I wrote in my book, Twins are not the same and their life will not be equal.

So twins grow up believing there's going to be equality. Oh, they're going to have the same big house, and the same number of children, and the same income, and the same big job. You know, this is such a, damaging message to give to twins because twins grow up and guess what? Like everyone else in the world, life is not equal.

So this inequality that, that organically will result for most of us is something that twins are unprepared to handle. So they come in and they will Kind of sort of the surface issue is, is being upset with their twin. But the, but the bottom line issue is, is they are grappling with feeling angry and upset about the fact that their twin [00:37:00] seems to be winning the competition and it's so hard for them to acknowledge that, well, they made their own decisions.

They have their, I mean, how do you, how can you as a twin be happy with who you are when the person. That you have loved and needed most in the world is now your biggest rival. And so it is a really difficult emotional terrain.

Laine: Are there twins that you experienced where it's less of a rivalry and more of a like, because I don't, I mean, I can, I can only speak for myself because we all have different, you know, even the twin experience is different. I, and I wanted to actually get to that a little bit, but like, I don't think now, and I have as much of a rivalry as much as I I'm certain that we like some level of equality only because we can continue to live our lives the way that we want to.

It will be very difficult if one could do this and the other one could never do it. Because you couldn't afford it or could you know that that would be tricky if you're living two very, very different [00:38:00] lifestyles. So is there a fine line between rivalry and just simply, I'm looking for the word of like,

Nell: Breaking the twinship by being too different. I think that ties back into your thing of like, like if you're too different, then you essentially breaking what you have in common, that twinship or whatnot, that bond.

Laine: yeah, making decisions that depart from the other one's life or something.

Joan: Well, you know, it's interesting. I'd give you an example. Um, I've had worked with two men whose twins whose identical twin brothers have married and neither of them have been able to have a relationship with their twin brothers since the twin brother got married. And Both of them have felt abandoned by the twin brother, even though they're both married themselves now, they have not been able to negotiate how their twin leaving them was something that they could possibly, you know, ever get used to in their life.

So it, it goes [00:39:00] so deep. And, and, and I, and I, I know it's hard to just say rivalry, but it goes to this core place inside of some twins of, of absolute abandonment. Like there is not a place to feel like their twin is allowed, even though intellectually these men understand the abandonment issue is so profound that they can't, they can't allow themselves to have a relationship with their twin anymore because the abandonment.

of their connection has ruined their lives. So it's, it may sound strange.

Nell: But that might get back to also like you, how we talk about the twin mystique of this idea that it's so romanticized in society, this like, this, you know, bonded forever, that you said, live and die together, not, you know, soulmates forever, where it's like, they're all, we're almost told that it's kind of imposed on twins to the point that we don't really feel, we feel like we are neglecting twinship.[00:40:00] 

If you move away from that, it's, and it shouldn't necessarily be an abandonment of that. Yeah, it's like a cult. And I, I mean, I see this now even with, um, you know, I have a very good friend who just got engaged to a twin. And she told me, you know, that the reaction of the brother was not a positive one.

You know, openly not a positive one. And you know, we talked about it in depth at lunch and you know, it's one of those things that I'm just, you know, I kind of talked to like, I probably feels like a deep, like you said, it's an abandonment of some sort, but it doesn't mean it's right or wrong. It just, it is the emotion.

But what's hard is like, I think what you also said is that sometimes people feel so stuck. Like they don't know really where to go. They can't just go to any therapist because really like you are such a, like, I don't know how many of you are out there. I mean, if. I've never felt comfortable enough to go to any therapist to talk about anything because I've always felt like nobody understands or can go deep enough to understand the twin, the partner, every, like, it's just [00:41:00] too.

Laine: maybe conceptually, but not experientially, there's something different about the experience.

Joan: is, yeah, there's, there's a, of course I'm unique, you know, I have to be unique. I'm, I'm not a twin, right? I'm unique, but there's many, there's many, um, there's a few people, there's a bunch, a handful of people that specialize in treating twins. And I'm hoping to start something where I can start educating more clinicians about some of these twin issues, because there needs to be more people doing the kind of work that I'm doing, because there's a lot of twins out there.

Nell: Well, especially because there's now, especially with the fertility treatments and women having children later, there's a much higher frequency of twins, which by the way, I did want to, I did want to tell you that, um, our mom has identical twin brothers. They were the seventh and eighth kids. Can you imagine?

My grandmother had six kids and the last two said, I mean, we're twin boys. And my mom essentially raised those boys. So she ironically had this, you know, like a [00:42:00] B she was 12, I think when they were born, she had kind of raised them. And then also my husband has identical twin cousins on his side of the family.

So he was raised there. I mean, they were raised like brothers here in Puerto Rico. Everybody's, the cousins are so close. He had like a very intimate relationship with twins and saw that. So I felt like it was helpful. for him to kind of have a little bit of an understanding.

Joan: Yes. That's so wonderful.

Laine: While we're talking about partners, I am curious if, because my sister and I have noticed that the men that we chose to share our lives with have kind of been a little bit of the yin and the yang for us in the sense that it's not a perfect match, but you know, her husband has some similarities energetically and psychologically to me.

And, you know, My husband has some similarities to the roles that my

Nell: He's an amazing guy. That husband of yours, by the way.

Laine: I [00:43:00] really love your husband. Um, admirable, admirable guy. so with that said, like, do you ever see that? Because we do think it's kind of interesting that it's like, and that's sometimes, honestly, Be, you know, there's that can sometimes even cause, you know, butt heads, or it can be very compatible. Like my sister and my husband get along really well because they do.

They have that energetic, they're a little bit more relaxed. They kind of like see they're, they're more conceptual. I'm more experiential, you know, so I see, I see, do you see that in twins that they're choosing partners that might actually be a little bit of a replica of what energetically their twin represented?

Joan: I'm, I'm thinking of my own twins. their fraternal and comparing their 35 and comparing who they chose as spouses with the singletons. The singletons seem to choose people that were more complementary, not exactly their opposites, but complementary in terms of the way you're sort of describing how you, you know, you're [00:44:00] a complementary with her husband, your husband with, with Nell.

But my fraternal twin boys, I haven't figured out why this happened. They married. Their exact replica in a woman, they, they married somebody just like them. And I sort of just sort of thought about this the other day when I was talking to somebody and I was thinking, is that mean I did a good job or a bad job?

I can't figure it out, but they are so alike. They're what their wives are. Just like they are, like one of the twins is very soft spoken and shy little introverted. So is her, his wife and the other one, the outgoing son, outgoing, you know, salesman, very like energetic is just like his wife. And so it's really interesting.

So I have yet to find the answer to this. But. My husband is nothing like my twin. I would say that he's so complimentary to things that I don't [00:45:00] have. But I'd say he's not providing anything that my twinship did as I was growing up. So it's interesting, just an interesting question,

Nell: Yeah. Well, and what, how about your twin is her partner? energetically similar to you, let's say, or no? Completely opposite as well.

Joan: complete opposite. Yeah, I always said to my sister, I think I married our father. And my sister will say to me, But then who did I marry?

Nell: Is there a brother around? Did she marry a brother? A grandpa?

Joan: We're still trying to figure this out

Nell: is so funny.

Joan: because my husband, I didn't know is, is a lot like how my father was for better or worse, but it's just, it's just so funny how these things happen. Well,

Nell: very interesting. We were one of those twins that when we were younger, we never had a hundred percent answer whether we were identical or fraternal because we were born in 80. And at that time, the technology was not as good. And it was like, first they said we were identical.

Then they said we were fraternal [00:46:00] because there was two attachments. But later on, it came out that you can share a sack or something. I don't know the science per se, but the point is, is that we lived most of our lives growing up, not really knowing. And it was strange because when people would ask us, If we ever said like, oh, we're probably identical, then people would look at us and be like, but you don't really look very alike, you look really different, you know.

And then if we say we were fraternal,

Laine: So

Nell: be like, but you look so alike. So we had this like ridiculous situation and finally at 21 years old, if you can imagine, we got DNA tests. at 21. And I remember there was like a little bit of a crisis we had before because I think we felt we were identical. And we, and it was an identity thing where we were like, Oh my God, what if we find out that we're not identical?

Like, how does this, you know, affect our identities, our personal identities? And we found out we were identical. But I guess I want to ask you that, like, do you, so we were like, Oh, relieved. Let's say when you look at twins and you treat twins and you these [00:47:00] situations, are there more intense. issues between identical twins who have that kind of, again, I don't know, twin mystique, let's say, compared to like fraternal twins or even different sex twins.

I know that the relationship can still be intense, but do you see something more, um, exponentially more intense when it comes to identical? That's my question.

Joan: They do have their own particular set of issues that are difficult because they are so different. I mean, it's the exact opposite of what identical twins struggle with, but usually, you know, they are, have different academic capabilities or athletic abilities or, you know, personalities or, you know, so they're very much not matched in terms of, you know, their skills.

And that increases the amount of competition. Like, you know, fraternal twin boys will be in a group and someone will say, you know, your brother's so good at baseball. How come you suck at this? You know? So [00:48:00] there's an expectation that they're supposed to be alike, but fraternals are,

Nell: They're just like any

Joan: are, are two.

They're like any siblings, except they're born at the same time. That's all. But nobody, of course, you hear fraternal twins and you put on all these other labels. And it's really hard for some fraternal twins to hold on to their own selves if there's like this huge discrepancy. And if they're in the same class at school and one's, you know, like an A math student and the other one's getting D's, I mean, the teachers are going to go, well, what's wrong?

Your brother's doing so well.

Nell: And two regular siblings wouldn't have to deal with that comparison. If they were three years apart,

Joan: because they'd be that. That's right. So in the worst cases, when I get in consultations to parents in the worst cases, I say, please put them in different schools because the only way they're going to have an experience of being okay with who they are is to have their brother or [00:49:00] sister. removed, you know, in another physical setting.

So at least they have the space to be seen and understood and liked and accepted for who they are, not in this constant state of being devalued or compared or, you know, competing with, which is awful.

Nell: that sometimes with the labeling, it's like, there's very identical and fraternal. Well, this is your, she's very artistic and she's the athlete. And then it tells the artistic one that they can't be athletic and the athletic that's subconsciously giving them that message like, Oh, she's artistic, I can't be artistic.

And so I, I. Imagine that, I mean, that's, it's kind of like the double edged sword of it, but like, if you're raising young children, and I'm trying to remember back to your Emotionally Healthy Twins, do you talk about a little bit of like, how do you help give young children their own identity, like, if you're not going to put them in separate schools, let's say,

Laine: Reframe that. So even parents who are listening, who have fraternals or identicals, what would your advice? Yes. Yeah. What is your

Joan: my biggest advice that I've, [00:50:00] you know, I've again figured all this out after I had my boys because it was the experience of raising singletons was so different than raising the two of them at the same time. Thankfully, I was an experienced mom I can't imagine if these were my first kids, I would not have survived, but you know how it is your first time.

So, it's my fourth time. Fourth and fifth time, thankfully. But what I recognized was this. I said, I can't get a connection to either one of them. I've got to do something. I was not connected and I wasn't going to be connected to both of them. Like my experience was from my parents. So my biggest advice, you should have heard what happened when I first presented this and a mothers of twins group that I was running, I said, listen, I have found out that the best way you can.

feel good about your parenting with twins is to try to spend time alone with each one of them. And they're going, we don't want to do that. If we have time alone, we're leaving them both home and we're going to get a manicure. You [00:51:00] know, it's like they, and there was, and then one of them said, I told my mother about this and she said, you're like King Solomon.

You cannot, you can't like cut these two children in half. You can't separate them. So this whole idea of. And I know this from understanding attachment. A parent child attachment. Is what a child needs, not a twin being each other's parent. And without parents making a big effort at being attached to both children, which you would normally do organically.

If you had singletons, you have to make this happen with twins in whatever way you can have it happen, because if they end up, and I would say that most of the people that end up in my office were parented by their twin, And while their twin did a good job or did the best job they could, it does not prepare them to be an integrated, emotionally healthy adult.

It can't happen.

Laine: Our mom and dad, you know, we, we grew up [00:52:00] originally in Fort Lauderdale and they told a story that one day, you know, my dad took one of us to the grocery store, it was mom or somebody, and one of us stayed home. And the one who stayed home sat at the window and cried the entire time. And my mom said this, whoever came back, you know, because parents get these stories

Nell: I think it was my mom who came back and my dad must have said,

Laine: And dad said we're never doing that again. We're never doing that again because it was just so torturous So that was like the beginning of the twin mystique where it's like they're happier together Don't separate them. It's not worth it and I will furthermore say that I think now and I will both say like I It's profound to hear this gets it's emotional for me even hearing that because I think now and I did parent each other a lot and that's why I probably called her mom in high school because You know, we had a mom who was, she, you know, she was a United flight attendant for 50 years.

She traveled a lot. We had a very capable dad, but you know, we had our own versions of trauma and we took care of each other and probably to the best that we could. And, um, you know, we carry a lot of that stuff with us now still to this day. And, [00:53:00] and I, and that brings me to the concept of, I know in the beginning you talked about this remembering the way that we remember things.

And Nell and I talk about this a lot as we've gotten older. We kind of asked you about what the issues are with. adult twins. And sometimes when we have our twin issues, because my husband will say, you guys aren't fighting about what's happening in this house right now. You're, you're fighting about the same things you fought about when you were 17 or where you, you were 18.

Like, it's all rooted in the same shit. And what Nell and I have kind of learned a little bit, and I think my sister even talking to you is sometimes it's like, We remember things differently. The twin experience is so different for it. So sometimes she says things about her experience and I'm like, Oh my God, I feel so bad that you, that's like what you were feeling.

I didn't know that, you know, and I'll be like, you know, and then it makes me dig deeper to some of the things I was

Nell: Well, and then the joke is that I'm like, I didn't know I was feeling that either until now, because you, at that time you can't, I mean, again, you're just so in it. That's your reality. You don't know. People would always say, sorry, I don't want to sidetrack too [00:54:00] much, but they'd say, what's it like to be a twin?

And I'm like, well, I have, I mean, it's like saying, what's it like to be you? I mean, I don't know what, I don't know what it's like to not be a

Laine: That's all we know. Well, we didn't have other siblings, so we really didn't know

Nell: we didn't, yeah, we didn't have any other siblings.

Laine: but I will say like when Nell says things about the way, like her, her memory of things or the way that she logged things, experiences that shaped it's, it allows me to be. Be reflective about like, well, yeah, I actually was doing a, B and C or this was, I was reacting to this, or I had to survive this, you know, type of, um, you know, label or,

Nell: Which opens my eyes to your experience too. I think we've had some conversations and I'm like, okay, that opens my eyes to like, I forget because I get into my own story.

Joan: This

Nell: Which I mean that's in a way that's where we have to live. Yeah, we live in our own stories Let's say but then it's a good reminder a healthy reminder big.

Okay, there was a whole nother story going on as well So

Laine: yeah, we, we, we just have different, I think that's a profound for, for, I mean, everybody would assume they have [00:55:00] different memories of their childhood, but for twins, you sort of assume that it's the same memories,

Nell: her same

Laine: said. So departing from it and being like, I, I remember that differently.

I remember that so differently. It's like, we've had those moments where like. Where it's so, it's healing. It's healing in a lot of

Joan: And you know, it's interesting because it goes against this whole idea. How can we remember things differently if we have ESP? And we finish each other's sentences, you know, and we're soulmates forever. And, you know, we can read each other's minds. I mean, you know, again, I, I, I think most individuals, twins included have a very different memory of of traumatic events or experiences regardless because at the end of the day

Nell: two perspectives

Joan: through your mind.

That's right, it's two separate people even though you happen to have a twin bond, you know, but thank you for bringing up that. the story about your parents because it's so, you know, I always tell parents, yeah, they're, if you start this really early on, like I started it at first, of course, cause I was a maniac with my boys [00:56:00] about taking them out separately.

If it's already a part of your ritual and your family, this is what you want to do. But if you started too late, especially like if you're toddlers or, you know, of course they're going to cry and people go, Oh my God, they're crying. They miss each other. This is terrible. I go, no, they're not. They're crying because, you know, They're once going off and you don't know where they are.

I mean, this is, this is normal development, but you need to work through it and say, blah, blah,

Nell: and I see that between regular siblings too By the way, like and to like my my youngest too They you know, the youngest one gets upset when the middle one leaves, you know, that's They're attached or he's attached to her. I wanted to add on to it about my parents, which is interesting is that in retrospect, when my dad would talk about it, he would say, you know, we did the best we could, you know, we raised you, we treated you exactly the same.

We treated you like the same person. My sister and I were like, That's the problem. Their life's a problem. Like, and he's like, he thinks they were like, and my mom will still [00:57:00] say it too. Like, we were so fair. Like, I had the idea of fairness. And you brought that up. Fairness. Like, it was like treated equally.

And I was like, but maybe we didn't need to be treated fairly and equally. Maybe you needed to treat me one way and treat her. I mean, but they had zero, like, One on one we didn't have like where it was like, oh I would go with my dad for something and vice versa Even as like young adults, I mean

Joan: but you know, you bring up this is very important because parents today, it's still an issue how how they're they're so uncomfortable treating these children unfairly because it makes them feel guilty. And it makes them feel like there's favoritism, and it makes them feel uncomfortable. Figuring out who each of them is as a separate person.

Once you have that kind of in your mind, you're much more capable of not getting caught up in this equality, in this fairness. And parents do so. It's so well intentioned. Your parents obviously felt this was exactly the thing that they needed. But how would you be prepared, you know, [00:58:00] after you're growing up and everything's equal?

How can you live in the world where you're not going to be treated like that? You're not prepared. But it's, it's parents guilt. It's guilt and it's discomfort with the fact that this is what it's like to be a good parent. And it really just takes trying to educate parents that this really is a really sort of false philosophy or belief that in the end is not going to benefit the twins.

Nell: well So talk to us really quick just about how like we talk up I feel sometimes that twin relationships are a much more intense You know micro version of how Even family dynamics can be I have friends who have sister dynamics, you know that are can be very common That's what I guess I was gonna ask you is, you know, do you see that this is very relatable?

It's just more a more intense version with twins But that a lot of people can probably relate or benefit from kind of [00:59:00] understanding what we're talking about here whether it's with their sister or their cousins or

Joan: I'm, yeah, I think so many people that have read my book said, you know, the first one that, you know, this is all relatable to siblings to the idea of trying to make a connection to each child and be aware of their individuality. But yes, I agree with you. I was trying to think about that question and and I.

I came up with the fact that you can be in a family and you can be designated the good child or the bad child, you know, depending on where the parental attachments are for whatever reasons. But if you're a twin and you're labeled good and the other one's labeled bad, it's just not the same intensity that maybe a sibling has to go through.

Also, a sibling has to be a sibling is not as accountable. Twins are so accountable to each other. And in that accountability lies a lot of positivity, but a lot of negativity, too. So the intensity, I would just say, is [01:00:00] is much more pronounced. And I think it has a lot to do with how twins in a family need each other.

And it's not the way that siblings customarily need one another, because you can need this person that you're so reliant on who's your everything. And then all of a sudden life happens and you lose that. Connection that twin who's been your accountability leaves you for whatever reasons at whatever age I'm taking seven, 13, whatever, there's a shift, there's a rupture and getting over that.

I don't think that happens with different age siblings. It's just not the same. I

Laine: bit about our experience when we first separated again at 29, and when she went to Puerto Rico, she had to really, you know, push herself to be on her own and to have her own identity. And I still kind of lived in that. Everyone here in Chicago knew me for, you know, [01:01:00] for, for many years and knew me as a twin, but it wasn't until I left the city and moved to the suburbs when I had my third baby.

And it was really jarring for me because I was like, Oh my God, here

Nell: Which was like 10 years later is the point, like you were that you were like in your later 30s by then.

Laine: and I was like such a grown up and here I was and I was going to these like, I don't know, like preschool nights and I would be going to walk in somewhere and I'd be like, Oh my God, I'm like nervous because I don't have the same. Let's look for this word here. Let's look for this word that you told me.

Social capital.

Nell: Capital, social capital.

Laine: And I, I literally, I did. I, of course, I didn't know that

Nell: A plus for you to put the vocab

Laine: I didn't have, um, I didn't have the, the awareness to call it that, but I knew that I inherently didn't, nobody had a reference for me. I didn't have any cachet, you know what I mean?

I was just walking in as this girl that like no one knew. And I felt it. I felt like people were talking to me just to move on to the next person. They didn't have enough experience with me reference for me. I didn't have my sister by my side to kind of [01:02:00] cause the, like, we, people.

Nell: Not enough, not enough

Laine: Not enough curb appeal.

So it was like really grounding and humbling for me. I was like, Oh my God, this is like, I just have to drum up. relationships from like the root from the root interest level of like getting to know people having reoccurring exposure and just like making real bonds and

Nell: Well you had to make a friendship like a regular person

Laine: but and that's also when you talked about like how long it takes to create intimacy it took me longer to create intimacy because with your sister there we can create intimacy quite quickly you know the two of us like working with somebody like talking it's like you get close quickly and it took me a long time and and then COVID happened and And so basically what I'm saying is that I, I did go through some things when I first like was here where I felt like kind of lonely for a few years until I could really develop bigger friendships.

And I can't believe to go through that at this age was like very humbling. It was just

Joan: Well, you know, it's also, it's a beautiful story, but it also shows, you know, it's like this feeling. Can somebody just like me for [01:03:00] me? You know, it's that, and that's what twins struggle with. Am I just likable? Am I, who am I? Am I likable? What, what people find my personality nice, funny. I mean, it's, it's hard because you are really kind of in a vacuum at that point.

And if you're not sort of connected with yourself and who you are and how you feel, it's, it's Very humbling is a very good word. Scary is another word. You know, anxious is another word. I mean, it's, and it's eye opening.

Nell: When I moved here, I was like going through so many changes at once that I couldn't even focus on the twin piece. Do you know what I mean? Cause I was like learning Spanish and like in a whole new place, like figuring out how to drive here, all these things, the twin thing I did notice more in retrospect, I was like, wow, a lot of people don't even know I'm a twin.

I mean, now that I've been here for 15 years, more people know that, but there's still people that that comes out and like, Oh, I didn't know you were a twin. And that for me, like, it was such a good. development, [01:04:00] developmental step, let's say. But again, as Lane says, at such a later phase in life, it's almost comical to think that in my thirties, I was going through that for the first time being seen and people knowing me for me, not what a piece of two or not knowing the name, but like, yeah, I'm now, and that's,

Joan: But you know what? It's one, it's, it's wonderful. It's never too late. It's so, it's so good that you both had that experience. It's in it. Of course, that strengthens your own connection to each other too. It's great. All right. So you want to hear about superpowers

Nell: that's, I leave it.

Joan: okay. You want to, I mean, I had to write it down because I'm always much more focused on the negativity.

Okay. So, um, it's my job. Okay. So

Nell: Honest, honest.

Joan: I feel, um, that there, They have an invincibility with one another that, that non twins don't have. They have a closeness and a special intimacy. When things are good, they're each other's best friend and very, and their own confidant. They have a [01:05:00] lot of shared experiences that only the two of them can, you know, appreciate together.

They reassure one another. I think that's how we sort of started the podcast, reassuring each other about Things are fine. Or like you said, Lane, like standing up tall if Nell needed something from you, mirroring and validation. And then at the end, I thought maybe the biggest thing is trust. You know, I mean, it's trust that twins have with one another when their relationship is wonderful and safe and coherent.

I think their trust in one another is just absolutely beautiful. I

Nell: that's such a nice note to leave it on. I love that. And it is true. Like the, that's something that you can't really. have with other people. Or you can at least take what you have with your twin and apply it or know that that intrinsic exists and you can apply it with others. I don't know.

Laine: intimacy and partnership are so natural to me, like loyalty, that type of thing, [01:06:00] because of the way that I've lived my life with a twin sister. Like I always say that, like, well, it's very easy for me to be compatible and intimate and just, you know, it's partnership is quite natural because of the way that we were raised.

Well,

Nell: Oh my goodness.

Laine: this is

Nell: Joan, thank you so much. This is amazing. You're

Laine: could keep you on

Nell: I mean, we could talk for hours.

Laine: I know we won't publicize a session,

Nell: Should we schedule you for next week? Can you come, can you come back on next week?

Joan: Oh, I think it'd be good to have a little space.

Nell: your schedule look?

Joan: thank you. I, I really enjoyed this. It's so much fun for me to also to be authentically open about a lot of stuff that nobody's really interested in hearing about. So thank you for the forum. I really, really appreciate it.

Nell: And that's, we really wanted to lift the veil and kind of deepen this, like, get past this first layer of twins that everybody sees. And you have definitely helped us do that. Um, I'm looking up right now because you had sent me an [01:07:00] email on some of your social media. We can, Joan, you are based in Santa Monica.

And you also do virtuals. I,

Joan: A lot.

Nell: Um, so yeah, in the 2024, your website is joanafreedmanphd. com.

Joan: hmm.

Nell: So people can check you out there. She's got an Instagram page as well.

Joan: I make videos on Instagram. I, every week I come out with twin Tuesday. I have no idea how to use Instagram. I have to pay somebody to post them, but there, I have videos. Um,

Nell: You're not the only one.

Joan: so my, I think my videos are pretty good. So you might want to check those out too. So yeah.

Nell: seen them. I love them. I've seen them. Um, of course. Yes. No. So please, if anybody's interested, check Dr. Friedman out, you are a force. What a force.

Laine: thank you so much for coming on and talking to us.

Joan: Thank you for having me on. I so appreciate it. Okay. Take care. Bye.